Maps above show that not one AA Klyosov often do not take into account that in the regions and ethnic groups for many thousands of years, there are a number of carriers of male and female haplogroups (and women too, should take into account necessary).
Did not meet the researchers who in his writings to avoid mistakes and inaccuracies, different assumptions, which themselves are often subsequently rejected. If there is a sensible and reasoned criticism, then sin is not correct their mistakes. Sam try in this case expeditiously to correct their blunders. But there are authors for whom the recognition of our own mistakes is equivalent to death.
Das ist alles, «Community Klesov"
It's finally all New Alphabet (îáùàãà) Klesov
Syuzhetets .========================
One doctor and a professor in the debate with the other resistant to such of its argument
- Illiterate, schizo, delirium, clown, whacky, insular entity, pygmy, helpless rhetoric aheniist, kondovy scholastic (etc.)
- Well, clear the stump, R1a1 - not only arias and Slavs. R1b - not only Turks. Women play an important role in history (and hundreds like your nit-picking). But what does this have to do a DNA genealogy?
- Bath sheet. Doe, A bag to beat. You do not understand anything. Are carrying God knows what. Do not be shamed or something. (Etc.).
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
You do not take aback by such logic and style of treatment? Tried to return the opponent and his associates sanity - do not go away. Hence, the outcome is inevitable conclusion.
Some advice: pass by these "scientists" with head held high, you are above them.
Unfortunately, such a position in the global information society does not pass. Few people pay attention to her head held high. But on the aggressive vtyuhivaemye dogma (even supposedly "new sciences") Internet users inevitably peck. And if you do not resist these intrusive zaviraniyam - they may prevail for a long time, made for a stable truth. To create and support the scientific outlook is extremely dangerous. Hence, the real head researcher often inclines to the computer to again and again reasonably reflect the regular informational provocations.
======================================
In total, I AA Klesov and his associates are given the details of hundreds of specific comments and justifications for mass updates. If you get distracted from the cesspools klesovskoy abuse, then more or less clear explanation could hear, perhaps only once http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/28/352
1.Raschet time interval to the common ancestor of the population under study -
important issue of DNA genealogy (===== like this do not understand Zolin vdolbalsya in the most important issue of DNA genealogy ":" monstrous ": PZ).
2.Pochemu in the calculations, we take 25 years per generation
The historical calculations (which builds the chronology), and who
are not conducted through the generations, as in years, the rate constant mutation severely
dependent on the number of years in a generation (======== so with the same success in the age-depth can be considered, and for 100 years, it's not in your calculations, and the natural confirmation of such calculations: PZ).
3. Why do we have considerably less attention paid to the mtDNA in the calculation of times to common ancestors, and rasmotrenii migration in general because we are doing genealogy, rather than population genetics ... (genealogy women should not be considered when all the difficulties of such integration? PZ)
But there will inevitably remain many questions. With constant new data definitively whether justified "core haplotype," Are all storage media
haplotypes were direct descendants of one person in the past, whether optimal method of accounting of recurrent mutations, etc. (For all three positions)?
But without a clear answer grubyatiny - a feat for Klesov. He - well-known in the science master vtyuhivaniyu persistent obsessions, their prolix repetitions of various zavirany. Against this background, grains begin to lose its real scientific advances in the total DNA genealogy (Haplogroups with women, etc.).
He indicated deficiencies in an enlarged form and in a mass of particulars. And almost anything intelligible guru himself and his companions on these points could not say. Again only hide behind a smokescreen of abuse, which can not substitute for the real arguments.
Here are some obvious and verifiable examples.
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/18/187 Science or method?
In fact, AA Klyosov offered is not very proven methods in the overall DNA genealogy (she considers haplogroup women, etc.). All DNA genealogy - a major method of historical genoetnografii (gene geography, population genetics, etc.)
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/1757 Zolin v. Klesov. Ending Detective
I emphasize again that a number of assumptions and calculations AA Klesov still tends to be an objective truth that is close to the truth. What's the problem?
1.Pervaya - banal. A. Klyosov and his colleagues are prone to typos, significant http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/443; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/08/1360; http : / / www.proza.ru/2011/01/02/541 etc. Guess who is not inclined to them, especially in polemics. But these errors are present in the academic edition of Journal of DNA genealogy. Can result in an abundance. Sam A. Klyosov and his colleagues will do so much better. Please list all the result of typos in one of the editions of the Bulletin. If something is missing, try to add. Ignoring the spelling mistakes and errors Klesov reserves, under any fair comments from the opponents a chance to refer those comments to the "little things" - in fact, elements of fundamental importance for the real story.
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/443 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/08/1360 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/08/385 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/04/1407 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/03/607 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/02/1110 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/02/541 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/10/526 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/09/932 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/10/18/1099 etc.
2. Second - statistically. Who in Science does not know: There are three kinds of lies: lies, blatant lies and statistics. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ëîæü, _naglaya_lozh_i_statistika. A. Klyosov and his supporters do not realize that hard to support this thesis proved over the centuries. Statistics mean nothing until it is confirmed at all levels of calculations objective natural data. Currently there are no definitive criteria for reliable statistics righteousness AA Klesov and his associates. It is only natural study of the remains of different periods can contribute to the statistical decomposed objective scientific corrections. http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/01/644 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/11/27/215 etc.
3. Third - bind to the archeology and linguistics. On the Nostratic level with the likelihood of various "population-necks" might operated a rule - "one haplogroup - one Nostratic dialect. About 12 - 10 thousand years ago lived on the planet for several million people, and by the beginning of our era - and 200 - 300 million families have already developed a language supports at least a few male and female haplogroup. A. Klyosov and his colleagues often "rule of the Paleolithic" pull on the Mesolithic and - especially - in the Neolithic. Chances are good that it is fundamentally wrong. Hence - for example - and the wrong version of that aria are only carriers of haplogroup R1a1 (excluding other male and female HGs). Yes, the media R1a1 could be leaders (one of the leaders) of the process, but indoevropeystvo explicitly created not they alone. Comments on the archaeological bindings rightly done, LS Klein http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/443 ; http://www.proza.ru/avtor/zolinpm1&book=2 # 2 , etc.
4. Fourth - anthropological straining. Clearly, between Haplogroups and anthropological character of people have relationships. But no large-scale studies of human remains on Haplogroups in connection with various anthropological characteristics. Klyosov AA same - based on their "statistics" - is already inclined to global generalizations such as "To a large extent, this skull is preserved to this day among carriers haplogroups I1 and I2 (mainly dolichocephaly), and haplogroups R1a1 and R1b1 (mainly brachycephaly and mezotsefaly), although some dynamics of change in cranial index was characterized by one and the other in the course of many millennia. "
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444 All the remains had become like men.
Unproved anthropological stretches his abundance.
Yes, he is aware of this "Let's start with the fact that for most studied and summarized in Table skulls haplogroup their carriers is unknown to many and will remain
unknown. There can only assume, more or less
rightly, that we try to do in this paper. And when its tension-criticized assumptions, breaks curses - ignorant, absolutely do not understand and t.p.A what is understood? "Haplogroups skulls are unknown ..."
5. Fifth - the patriarchal version. DNA genealogy, already in name, must take into account the mtDNA genealogy. A. Klyosov looks a lot of excuses to not do this. And for the real history of this position is unscientific, no multi-millennial history without women. P. M. Zolin. (The essence of the comments) In connection with the multidimensionality millennia of history should be carefully considered and the role of haplogroups women, for example - in the early formation of languages and ethnicities. http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/06/343 A. Klyosov (The essence of the answer), after the usual slang (there is still myagkovato) in talks with "interested klutz" - "wrong note", "impression layman, "it's like to compete on the UCI to impose that they forget about civil aviation," comments dilettante character "(etc.) - still delivered a very important thing for me.
"If the Y-chromosome DNA haplotypes operate its hundreds of years, and with good accuracy, it operates only mtDNA millennia. For a "genealogy" is virtually useless. But at distances of tens to hundreds of thousands of years, mtDNA has the advantage compared to the Y-chromosome genealogy. So again, everything has its time and place. Sentence such as "women forget again," without specifying the tasks for which it is - it's not very sensibly. It is the same as the competition for ECU to impose that they forget about the civil aviation unfairly overlooked, not respect, do not appreciate the role and importance of our falcons.
So what can chemical kinetics and bring in mtDNA, but, again, to solve other problems. " http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/06/343
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Õèìè÷åñêàÿ_êèíåòèêà
P. M. Zolin.
It is about the period of European settlement of tens of thousands of years ago, the formation of Caucasians are at the junction (due, etc.) with Mongoloids and separation donostraticheskih and Nostratic languages in later language families - Indo-European, Finno-Ugric peoples, Turks, etc. "So it is possible (and for me, and need, although this method does not possess - PZ) chemical kinetics and mtDNA bring ...." Or any other, but accurate "kinetics".
For 15 - 10 thousand years ago in the European part of Russia even moved a few carriers of male and female haplogroups, which are presented in Russians and now http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/157
Women's Russians H 36%,, V-4%, T-6%, J - 7%, K - 5%, U - 8%, X - 3%. Etc.
Men, for example, only in Russian (all great Russians) R1a 51% R1b - 7% I1a -5%; I1b - 12%; N3 - 22%; E3b1-3% (something like this in the light of Ukrainians and Belarusians, but taking into account N3 - 16% less than the proportion of R1a). And so on
http://www.demushkin.com/content/articles/291/2497.html etc.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ãàïëîãðóïïû
Some women's haplogroup, according to specialists, have appeared in European Russia early in the male 55 to 50 thousand years ago (the male line of that time have not survived). The history of these haplogroups soundly reflected in the Wikipedia (Russian, English, German, etc.; translations on Automata search engines, the adjustment within the meaning of). http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444
6.Shestoe - arbitrariness ethnic bindings (see also 3 - 5). Probable Paleolithic rule - "one haplogroup - one Nostratic dialect" (one language) - almost no effect early in the Holocene. And then begins the formation of modern language families. This Diocese of linguists. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Íîñòðàòè÷åñêèå_ÿçûêè
Virtually all the language families of the Holocene - the products of interaction of carriers at least a few male and female haplogroup. http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/27/415 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/30/787 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/05/228 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/157 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/674 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/05/1217 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/06/343 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/06/1419 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444 etc.
At associates AA Klesov ethnic groups, in fact, often are carriers of the largest ethnic group in the male haplogroups (without the participation of women). R1b has long been an indicator of some Turks, though recently there has been a departure "klesovtsev" from such a rigid uniqueness. Haplogroup R1a1 - in science Klesov - an indicator of formation and migration of early Indo-Europeans and Aryans. Estimated persistently fed "big strokes" as proven. And it inevitably turns away from the relatively productive method of many researchers. On the other hand, we have observed a wide range of haplogroups in the formation of early Jewish http://forum.vgd.ru/177/23317/0.htm
The apparent similar spectrum in a number of other early ethnicities AA Klesov as not particularly interested.
7. Seventh - the fear of natural data. Statistics AA Klesov based on composed not of databases and inevitably includes only currently known haplotypes (though they are hundreds of thousands, and - probably - and millions, hence my frequent and doubts about the validity of choice of the baseline haplotype; if all currently known cases included).
But in the real history of acting and supports a set of haplotypes, the descendants (also participants in this event) have died at different times to the present day did not survive. According to statistics from AA Klesov carriers of different haplogroups often withdraw entirely from those or other places (such as R1a c Russian Plain in the Urals and then in India), and then sometimes coming back. But in real history, some carriers' migratory haplogroup "and" unpreserved haplogroups, "including women, will inevitably remain in their original locations. And amplifying the natural study of ancient remains of this reality is increasingly detected. A. Klyosov angrily notes that these alleged studies "provide little information" http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/04/1407 . In fact, they are terribly informative. And, in particular, many aggressive krushat tale "guru of DNA genealogy."
8.Vosmoe - hypertrophy of the possibilities of the AA Klesov. Anatoly A. made externally greater precision dating male haplotypes than many other population geneticists. And that his method is certainly attractive. But he, too, in the last ten thousand runs in a tolerance of + / - up to a thousand years. And adjusted (unlike the radiocarbon method), usually for a relatively well-known historical data, especially archaeological, anthropological, linguistic and general historical (mainly on the basis of written sources). It turns out that no method of independently haplogroup dates, but the real story corrects the calculation of AA Klesov and his associates (in fact, customize the calculus under the well-known historical facts). Examples of this are many, starting with the biblical chronology.
Such errors are repeated and his associates
http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/10/526 version Slover of Slovenia and Ruse?
Disadvantages version GZ Maksimenko in historical relation with the use of unproven "Veles Book, it is very arbitrary translations and interpretations.
Real conclusions
1. Scientific "Ilmeriya", "ilmerskie tribes" (as a branch of "Aryans") has not yet been proved (Ilmen population of the district from the middle ages was called the "Lake District" and real "Ilmeriya - Lake District, which partly resembles the southern ezeritov http://slavanthro. mybb3.ru/viewtopic.php? t = 194 and others, the Internet search engines: PZ). The appearance of the carriers of haplogroup R1a, estimated AA Klesov is permissible, but not yet confirmed by studies of other specialists in historical gene geography.
2. By Tale of Slovenia (Slaven) and Ruse, Scythian princes Word and Rus went to the lake Moysko (renamed later in ilmenite) in 2395 BC (Relative to the 2010 4405 years ago, GZ Maksimenko ignores 14 years of walking around, searching for places in the village: PZ). Then put the "city" (of course, some Neolithic village of a few primitive dwellings). Epic exaggerated the events that have been in the spirit of the ancient traditions of the elevation of Great Scythia http://www.proza.ru/2010/02/27/200
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/02/1110 Pagan ignorance
Once again the mass of errors GZ Maksimenko, which - in particular - had imagined that in antiquity "and the horse is already on the Limits of our passing was" (ie, ancestors of the Slavs as would have seen the country from the heavens themselves shape the horse's boundaries, contours) .
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/26/623 How DNA genolog George Kiev dated
The abundance of arbitrariness GZ Maksimenko zaviralnoy dating at the base of Kiev
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/03/607 Many words are not always true
Criticism of information early medieval Russian literature to Brahmi
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/08/1360 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/08/385 ;http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/ 14/1116 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/16/362 etc.
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/04/1407 New approaches to DNA genealogy
Adjustment versions, IL Rojansky, AA Klesov in connection with their bias.
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/443 pros and cons of the approaches, IL Rojansky
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/18/880 criticism very careless publication IL Rojansky with any formulation of a number of carriers of different haplogroups.
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/25/451 obvious bloopers, IL Rojansky in the interpretation of the origin Cimbri.
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/10/893 Together with the therapist
Proposal A. Klesov healthier through a more systematic study of the real history
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/16/475 Nonsense about these ancient genus
Obvious need for significant adjustment of data on "old labor" on site "Rodstvo.ru» http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/18/238 Sredizemnomortsy only J2 obvious errors in the reduction of "sredizemnomortsev" to haplogroup J2 http: / / www.proza.ru/2011/01/18/432 Northerners only N Explicitly ignoring a number of male and female haplogroup sostavlyayushey "northerners". http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/19/988 Caucasians as if G is analogous to northerners. If you look at real data, an indicator of the Caucasians still is a relict of haplogroup F. It is dominated by the Chechens, Lezgins, South Ossetians, Svan. îä: ðóññêèé > àíãëèéñêèé
Important role in the Caucasus and carriers of haplogroup J2. - Dominated by the Ingush, Ossetians, and several communities of Armenians, Azerbaijanis and Georgians.
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/16/1500 Well, they do not know Keturah
Details of a stretch AA Klesov in the interpretation of biblical history, when - for example - a factor ignored by Keturah.
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/27/271 Carefully Paul Shvarev
Some professional errors of fellow AA Klesov
Attacking my last article, "klesovtsy" hard to forget that there is no sound of their responses and to my earlier comments.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/06/680 Ways ancestors Slovenian-Russians Supported version of AA Klesov an active (but not only) the participation of carriers of haplogroup R1a1 in the ethnogenesis of the Slavs and their ancestors. But noted and participate in the process of carriers of other men and especially women haplogroups. Pointed to the fact that "race R1b1» (with subgroups) can not be supported only agglutinating, Ancient languages, especially in the West of Europe. Not paying attention to my arguments, a number of publications A. Klyosov version of the language R1b1 as erbine "continued. Support authoritative linguists and other specialists in this version Klyosov has not.
My overall conclusion: "Now is the Turkic (and members of other language families - they are commonly known) are ready to lead mankind away favorite. Position generally clear. But excessive bias it is obvious. It is worth remembering about Nostratic and donostraticheskom Commonwealth ancestors of all peoples of the world, including the Slovenian-Russians. This is the word-Russians painstakingly from millennia of human history and are expelled. But haplogroup R1a1 and its predecessors will not do.
In that lies the rub for all enemies of the Slavs, however.
Scythians (skit) thousands of years have been polietnosom, which included pre-Slav, pratyurkov, prafinno-Ugric peoples and other groups. An important role in polietnose played enterprising women appear in the epics of the Amazons. This complex of female-male polikonstruktsiyu genoetnogeografiya (==== including DNA genealogy in istoponenii Klesov with colleagues: PZ) is still not properly sorted out.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/157 akin Russians haplogroup. It is shown that the archaeological, anthropological, and other search ethnogenetic
Binding of archaeological cultures and historical peoples to one ethnic group (one haplogroup) in the last several millennia in the region, mostly migratory AfroEvrazii (http://www.proza.ru/2009/05/31/646) are more dead ends. Nobody can prove anything to anyone, except for remarks - to some extent, partly, perhaps, t.p.Pochti there were no major archaeological cultures, created by men, only one haplogroup (not to mention the women. At least, representatives of several male haplogroups found in each of ethnicities (if not examined dozens, hundreds and thousands of men of a given nationality) so far.
Dana Klesov opinions, with a part which does not agree. Added.
I am convinced that in the papers - especially the new ones, - Anatoly Alekseevich Klesov and other experts on DNA genealogy and population genetics (molecular biology, etc.), the world will find a lot of very important and convincing sound results for the multi-millennial history of Russia and all mankind. At the beginning of September 2010 some disagreement here. http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444
http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/674 fellow travelers Words and Roos
It is shown that in the last few millennia in Europe and the District of archaeological cultures - usually - are associated with the activity of carriers of at least two (and sometimes more) male haplogroups. Not to mention the women. Binding archaeological culture = one haplogroup met only 4 out of 33 cultures, but all of them attributed to the circle Comb Ceramic Poteri - Pit-Comb Ware (with haplogroup N1C1).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_Ceramic_culture Language carriers of this culture is debatable. And in the southern regions significantly involved in the culture media of haplogroup R1a, etc.
http://www.rodstvo.ru/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t367.html
Sunny sheyping skull as rasovoobrazuyuschy factor and a marker
ancient human migrations. Vladislav A. Ryzhkov (a talented scholar whose ideas partly Klyosov "creatively borrowing") 1416
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/23/550 etc.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/15/423 If the Slavs thoroughly. Noted that, if hypertrophy rusost, blue eyes and whiteness of the Slavs, especially the Slovenian-Russians, then - you need to know - all these signs of modern genetics research anchored with 12 - 7,000 years ago. But people with these symptoms have been hundreds of generations of ancestors who had no such symptoms. http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/20/1062 blue-eyed; http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/20/490 brown
According to modern research white-skinned people have formed about 7,5 thousand years ago in milk consumption in Central Europe (in fact, on venedskih routes from the Adriatic to the Baltic amber), and then relatively quickly dispersed around the world http://www.proza .ru/2009/09/29/202; http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/20/490 .
Briefly quoted Herald of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy
Volume 2, ¹ 7 2009 December. Subclades R1a1a7-M458 - population, geography, history.
A. Klyosov and I. Rozhanski;. .
But to say that this - one example of a significant refinement of the data on haplogroup that had previously mapped consistently. Language bindings I have not been adopted. Overall assessment.
I am convinced that in the papers - especially the new ones, - Anatoly Alekseevich Klesov and other experts on DNA genealogy and population genetics (molecular biology, etc.), the world will find a lot of very important and convincing sound results for the multi-millennial history of Russia and all mankind. At the beginning of September 2010 some disagreement here. http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444
"Short History of the Slavs (much shorter Rybakov, VV Sedov, Trubachev)
http://www.lants.tellur.ru/history/danilevsky/d03.htm
MB Shchukin (St. Petersburg) BIRTH SLAVS
Memory Joachim Werner, Ryszard Volongevicha, Kazimierz Godlovskogo and KV Kasparova http://krotov.info/history/09/3/schukin.html
(High-quality version, but without the haplogroups and nostratiki, although the recognition of the Balto-Slavic and venedskogo amber ways for centuries before our era, in fact, one of the creators of "Kievan culture")
http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/16/287 peoples Haplogroups in 1500
Repeated the main focus of my work. None in the last few millennia, and major ethnic groups of Eurasia, consisting of only one male haplogroups (also not to mention the women). At least representatives of several male haplogroups found in each of the nationalities (if not examined dozens, hundreds and thousands of men of a given nationality) so far.
In the article "ethnogenetic diversity and unity," I emphasized the multi-millennial polyethnicity (on Haplogroups) of many nations, including and on the lands of Russia.
Genogeography, of course, is evolving and will evolve. There will be all sorts of refinements and modifications. But pay attention to the condition of the people to the era of discovery and development of the New World. It is able to influence on the economy of traditional society. See: the scheme of settling Eurasia http://proza.ru/2009/03/11/779
The main thing that experts Haplogroups definitively proven - the ancestors of today's ethnic groups lived tens of thousands of years ago. Ethnicity mainly formed by mixing the carrier number of male and female haplogroup. These ethnic groups in the last millennium came out on increasingly high levels of technological economy, reflects the diversity of archaeological cultures. Therefore strict archaeological binding material cultures in the busiest migratory regions of Eurasia to the intended installation ethnic groups - in most cases - are wrong.
Again marked differences with the dominant Klesov and soranikov:
One haplogroup = one language = one ethnic group (and even excluding women).
In each of the subsequent works are specific shortcomings positions AA Klesov. However, marked and promising aspects of his research.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/14/1125 Finns and Slavs from Nostratic community there is no advantage in the Finno-Ugric peoples in the development of Eastern Europe until the Ural Mountains.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/20/490 Russes - blond, red
Blue-eyed http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/20/1062
Lining colors on different carriers haplogroups
http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/26/191 Hypothesis AA Klesov the links R1b and R1a. Here, he said.
Firstly, I am deeply grateful to Peter Mikhailovich Zolin for his interest in DNA genealogy. He - one of the very few historians who enjoy and appreciate the importance of the new field of science. Irreversible mutation in the Y-chromosome DNA that define haplogroups and their subgroups - is irreversible labels, accompanying persons and their descendants, hundreds of thousands of years, their ancestors and deeper. Tens and hundreds of thousands of these tags are identical we have, for example, chimpanzees. This is the answer to the question of continuity and genetic lines for millions of years deep. So the argument that some "intermediate forms of human" is not found, does not mean that they were not. Just as long as they are not physically found.
Returning to the importance of DNA genealogy to history and linguistics, not to mention the actual "family genealogy, it must be emphasized that these irreversible tags in our DNA did not disappear into offspring, in contrast to languages, religions, cultural traits, and even anthropological evidence that change, assimilate, are erased. Therefore, the tracking of markers in the DNA, SNIP, gives the same "thread of Ariadne," which allows you to track the path of our ancestors. A fan of mutations in the haplotype can count the times when the ancestors lived, sometimes up to several centuries to millennia.
But the version of "erbina and tyurkosti early media R1b in Western Europe I have specifically rejected. In fact, supported the next researcher.
In the Turks, like all peoples on earth no one haplogroup, it is all "fairy tales" Klesov that R1b is the Turks. Certainly he an expert on the timing of life a common ancestor, but when this author climbs into the story, then obtained and the Turks that settled in Europe 6000 years ago and monogaplogruppnye Slavic Arias, who came to India 3500 years ago, the Indo-Europeans of 12000 years. And as it turns out that Veles book is original and so on, and the Basques are the same Turks, only isolated from other Turks.
Haplogroup to nationality and language is very distantly related. Monogaplogruppnye nations have ended 5000-10000 years ago.
From Argyns sixth was I R1a And the rest were G1, the way they Argyns with G1 now it has become more, about 10 tested
Haplogroup is rarely where it occurs, the peaks are found in Iran, but this does not mean that Argyns came out. There blzkie Ashkenazi Jews of this haplogroup, but a common male ancestor for Argyns and they lived 4500 years ago (maybe more).
In general, while Eurasian nations not fully tested so Eurasia, in contrast to Europe, this white spot on which the data is very small.
PS I have Sabitov J. http://forum.turan.info/showthread.php?p=86696
Understood by the subsequent voltage AA Klesov
http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/27/415 Nostra almost all of our
Again rejected by the subject of obsession Klesov prototyurkskom "erbine» R1b. On initial agglutinative languages.
That controversy specialists in linguistics
http://lingvoforum.net/index.php?topic=23072.0
Pure agglutinative and inflectional languages do not have all the languages to a greater or lesser extent, mixed. Agglutinative and inflectional extreme values on one scale. Still some freaks some sideways sure agglutination slows glottochronology compared to inflected languages. That they need to prove that the Turkic languages date back 5000 years and they have to pit culture or something like that. They were told that the agglutination (in essence - a definite morpheme tactics) can not influence the decrease kognatov in time, it's different layers of language. They do not understand. Just for inflected languages the name of the historically unfortunate happened. If you take the original meaning of the word ("flexible"), in the sense that the relationships between words are determined by inflection, from this point of view, of course, agglutinative languages - it's just kind of inflectional.
With the general conclusion
Many languages combine several types with a predominance of one or another.
http://randevu-zip.narod.ru/caucase/type.htm
The assumption (especially in an authoritarian or authoritarian clan with the support of the media and the authorities) as finally proved - the coffin of real science.
I am convinced that in the papers - especially the new ones, - Anatoly Alekseevich Klesov and other experts on DNA genealogy and population genetics (molecular biology, etc.), the world will find a lot of very important and convincing sound results for the multi-millennial history of Russia and all mankind. At the beginning of September 2010 some disagreement here. http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444
http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/30/787 Haplogroups and the early languages of Europe
Again rejected intrusive version of Klesov tyurkosti R1b1 carrier early in the West of Europe. Anatoly A. Klyosov, along with experts on DNA genealogy and linguistics T;rkologists developed version that supports R1b1 brought agglutinative - just as Turkic or similar Turkic languages - in Neolithic Europe. And it 3 - 2 thousand BC completely pushed the carriers here R1a1, who returned to the west, only about 2500 years ago. Version of AA Klesov as an expert on the movement of R1b1 and R1a1, in my opinion, you can take (however, with new research, the likelihood and adjusting this version), but here's the view of linguists, turkologists Binding R1b1 the Neolithic in Europe only to the Turks and their language requires independent verification is rigorous linguistic analysis. http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/26/191
Conclusion.
Currently there are no reliable basis for recognition of significant penetration of Turkic languages in the languages of Neolithic Europe.
By AA Klesov
"Ancestral, or rather" basic "haplotype in this series (the European version of haplogroup R1b: PZ)
13-24-14-11-X-XX-XX-13-13-16
where X - missing alleles. It is evident that this is again "Atlantic modal haplotype." Asian haplotypes to Europe almost never reached. "
"So, we found that in Europe, including Hungary and Bulgaria, though in some examples for the latter countries (for the rest of Europe is already known to thousands of haplotype groups R1b1b2, and there the picture is clear), came to the carriers of haplotypes of the" new era "with the ancestors 4-6 thousand years ago. Among ethnic Russian ancestors actually the same, but lived about 7,000 years ago (6775 ± 830 BP). It's all drevneyamnaya or Kurgan culture "and its predecessors, tyurkskoyazychnye native haplotypes.
Asian carriers of haplotype group R1b, speaking on tyurskskih languages, remained in Asia. " (End citing)
European carriers of R1b haplotypes are clearly predominantly speak Indo-European languages, and was fixed already in antiquity. Some exceptions to this "mostly" (Basques, Picts, etc.) require more careful linguistic study. Unique binding them to the early Turks impossible.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/05/228 it only from the Turks R1b
Specifically shown. R1a (SRY1532), along with Indo-active and 34% of Tatars, Bashkir (26%) (Bashkir Saratov and Samara Region. Up to 48%) and Central Asia: in Khujand Tajiks (64%), Kyrgyz (63%) Ishkashim (68%). That is, the Turks (Tatars, Bashkir, Kirghiz), it is clearly visible. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ãàïëîãðóïïà_R1a_ (Y-DNA)
(See: map)
R1b (which some scholars persist in trying to provide prototyurkskoy) dominates in areas associated with the Celts: in the south of England about 70% in northern and western England, Spain, France, Wales, Scotland and Ireland - up to 90% or more. It is essential for the Basques - 88.1% [8], the Spaniards - 70% [9], Belgium - 63% [10], Italians - 40% [11], the Germans - 39% [12], Norwegians - 25,9 % [13] and others.
Known in Eastern Europe. Do Ossetians Alagir - 43% of Czechs and Slovaks - 35.6% [8], Poles - 11.6% [14] -16.4% [8], Latvians - 15% [15], Hungary - 13.3 % [15], the Estonians - 9% [15], Lithuanians - 5% [15], Belarus - 4,2% [16], Russian - from 2,8% [17] to 21.3% [18] Ukrainians - from 2% [8] to 18.9% [19].
In the Balkans - the Greeks - from 13.5% [20] to 22.8% [8], Slovenes - 21% [15] Albanians - 17,6% [8], Bulgaria - 17% [10], Croats - 15,7% [21], Romania - 13% [19] Serbs - 10.6% [21], Herzegovinians - 3,6% [21], Bosnians - 1,4% [21].
In the southern Urals is widespread in Bashkir - up to 87% [22].
In the Caucasus, the Ossetians found - 43% [15] and Armenian - 32,4% [23].
In Turkey, reaching 16.3% [24], Iraq - 11,3% [25] and in other countries in West Asia.
In Central Asia, found in particular in Turkmenistan - 36,7% [26], Uzbeks - 9,8% [26], Tatars - 8,7% [27], Kazakhs - 5,6% [26], Uyghurs - from 8,2% [28] to 19.4% [29]
In Pakistan - 6.8% [30] in India is low - 0.55% [31].
North Africa
In the Algerian Arabs of Oran - 10,8% [32], Tunisian Arabs - 7% [33], Algerian Berber - 5,8% [34] and in Morocco - about 2,5% [35].
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ãàïëîãðóïïà_R1b_ (Y-DNA)
(See: map)
It is clear that such a widespread group of any people would like to see in their origins. Here are Turkic scholars it hard in the beginnings of the Turks and see. While it is true, and there are questions. Could the type of haplogroup J2, J1, G2a3 be among the ancient Turks during their stay in Central Asia? What are haplogroups in general can be attributed to the characteristic of Turkic peoples? Which haplogroup could be among those who first spoke in the ancient language? N1, O3, C3, R1b1b2?
let's ask ourselves: what haplogroups found in both with Turks and the Mongols? It is likely that they were inherent in the original holders of pra-Turk language. What a strange question, of course N. Yakut Turks.
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=1633.0
Of course, unambiguous answers yet to come. The main thing to note that the Eurasian world 10 - 12 thousand years ago was filled with the interactions of millions of people and carriers of two dozen male and female haplogroup. http://rest.msun.ru/Vector/Mongolia_fakt/N_peapl.htm
http://www.iu.ru/biblio/archive/capica_skolko/02.aspx
http://kraevedenie.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11&p=7886
http://www.elim.kz/forum/index.php?showtopic=2703&st=40
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/05/1217 Oh, these R1b
Publication of written debate with AA Klesov against his unambiguous linguistic and ethnic bindings R1b, etc. Any clear objections from Klesov been received.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/06/343 Women are very important
Re-emphasized that the method of DNA genealogy excluding women - almost useless for the real story. In general, Russia has an estimated http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/157
H 36%,, V-4%, T-6%, J - 7%, K - 5%, U - 8%, X - 3%.
But these are very approximate figures require significant adjustments,
yet fundamentally sound data did not occur to me.
Another question. Quite clear that without all these women have no real history of mankind has not been. Including Russia. Therefore, science - historical gene geography, population genetics, DNA genealogy (with chemistry), etc. - Need to study the female haplogroup antiquity to catch up.
Y-chromosome - is well.
Mitochondrial DNA - also not very unnecessary.
For periods in thousands of years and tens of thousands - is not too much PZ
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/06/1419 Calculations must check in kind
Noted that the genetic patterns allow for a relatively long time loyal calculations, making genetics and related disciplines quite an exact science. Sufficient but not absolutely. Unfortunately, not all experts draw attention to the arbitrariness of the published data (where different tolerances and different study of accuracy). As a result,
I am convinced that only a massive natural laboratory studies of the remains of ancient people would strengthen confidence in experts from other sciences to the calculated data, population genetics of millennia of evolution of modern humans. In this case, we should not overlook the participation of women in these complex evolutionary processes of real history.
Remarque
Only denies the non-coding regions of DNA with genes
The DNA molecule is the primary structure is a very strange formation, such as "trash": some genes for some reason repeatedly duplicated, some sections of DNA coding for nothing, and needed only to compaction of the DNA molecule in a superhelix, perhaps, there are remnants of retroviral DNA, are transcribed back into a nuclear chromosome, for some reason not to be activated and so it remained, passed from generation to generation, mobile genetic elements, coders enzymes for the reimplantation of these mobile genetic elements in the new position of DNA
There is a special set of proteins, histones (H2B, H2A, H4 and H3), realizing that the first level of DNA compaction. It is believed that this level of compaction is independent of the primary structure of DNA, but in reality, it is not. After all, the primary (and, hence, at least tertiary) structure of proteins encoded by the corresponding fragment of the histone molecules of DNA. Simply assumed that these proteins are very stable (in the textbook from which I took this example, we show that, for example, cows and clover H2A are not equal for only one amino acid). So, strictly speaking, it depends on the primary strutury. Mutation disabling proteins histones, fatal for the proper placement of the DNA molecule. These 4 molecules made of two pieces, form a group of 8 (4 * 2) molecules, the histone octamer. Achieved by shortening of the DNA molecule in a 7-fold.
Some sections of DNA directly encoding proteins, some - through the appropriate RNA splicing, some - of an RNA molecule, others nothing at all encode, affecting, however, to encode proteins of other DNA fragments. But, once again, in my opinion, it all boils down to a mediated protein interaction and RNA fragments of the same DNA molecule with a very complex chain of causation leading to it (DNA) self-preservation, self-modification, and, paradoxically sounds to samodegradatsii. Roughly speaking, you can not always samomodifitsirovatsya and finally do not get confused. Again and again confirms the full version of the failed Dolly.
For clarity, will bring the currently accepted classification of the functionality of different DNA fragments. I do not call their genes, since some of them do not encode. But, on the other hand, because of senseless sites in DNA is not (non-coding regions affect the coding), then, in a sense, all sections of DNA - the genes, if not direct, or indirect.
http://bioclub.ucoz.ru/news/2008-09-14-2
http://biomolecula.ru/content/52
http://www.abercade.ru/research/analysis/1554.html
http://rusnauka.narod.ru/lib/author/garyaev_p_p/1/
http://arxiv.ruckp.org/t1725.html etc .
(Specialist, do not be like the flux)
http://www.anafor.ru/prutkov/prutkov00.htm 101
Klyosov stubbornly insists that his method is genetics.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/08/1087 Extremes only Pioneera?
Attempts dramatic rejuvenation of data calculated DNA genealogy.
Supported Klesov. But notice. We must strengthen the conclusiveness (and make it more understandable for mainstream users) taking into account the greater number of factors that determine the thousand-historical process. Probably here and a new level of computer use and provide more optimal computer programs to process the facts of the abyss of the past.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444 made me so angry, my colleague
The first large-scale controversy Zolin - Klyosov. Supported by a number of positions Klesov, but specifically pointed out dozens of his exaggeration and error.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/10/04/376 Nostra community unified past
Reiterated the bias card with allocation of the dominant haplogroups in ethnic group (excluding women) compared with the maps that take account of ethnic groups in the number of male and female haplogroup. Klesov supported version of the early appearance of haplogroup R1a in the district of the Valdai Hills.
http://www.proza.ru/2010/10/12/1045 Lovely quarrel only amuse. This is about the possibility of the existence of the northern Semites "
Dear Anatoly A. (certainly not a he) denies the existence of the very term "northern Semites, and the possibility of family relations, taking into account at least these haplogroups between the ancestor of Indo-Europeans (including the Slavs) and the northern Semites. That is, in principle, very briefly, and all ... (Interesting version http://www.organizmica.org/archive/707/ggnc.shtml ) will answer consistently, as in http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444
Yet understand with http://www.proza.ru/2010/07/28/367 northern Semites
Summation http://www.proza.ru/2010/10/18/1099
http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/28/352 Happiness to you
analysis of positive and negative by AA Klesov. The persistent neglect of their exaggeration and error - a dead-end for "klesovtsev" way.
While this Tale distinctly not answer all of the above, the controversy with the community and AA Klesov loses all meaning. It smacks of the "science cult" where sanity and objectivity and common sense are obviously under strict prohibition. Inevitably, in this connection there is the mass of any "bad suspicion."
So «Das ist alles», «Sir, klesovtsy.
While the guru behind cursing apologizes, he errors and you do not fix it - "play" is no longer here.
No time for nonsense.
Correct translation of the Russian version
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/28/323
...